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Irish defence forces deserters ww2 pardon

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Shaz Rattigan

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Sceala Irish Craic Forum Discussion:     Irish defence forces deserters ww2 pardon

The campaign for a pardon for deserters of the Irish defence forces in the emergency.
Questions
Why is Ireland considering a pardon for deserters now?
Does anyone think the USA or Britain would pardon any group of deserters, especially deserters during a emergency.

Answers found online that show the stupidity of even considering this idea.

Irish Community ImagesIf the simply bias Alan Shatter forces through a blanket pardon for these deserters. The Irish army may as well just finish up.
The Military offence of desertion is unforgivable, unpardonable and a pardon would be tantamount to condoning desertion within the Irish Defence Forces. Senior Irish Army Officers have stated this.
Basically Shatter will say to any soldier who wants to desert the Irish Defence Forces in the future, to go ahead because they will be able to get a pardon. Any future deserter will be able to use Shatters pardon precedent, he personally is looking to force through.
No matter what smart words, or legal bullshit that Shatter imagines he can dress this in. Those men were deserters, and to pardon them is to pardon desertion by default.
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Irish Community Images

Irish Community ImagesI have a question about this.
Where did Senator Mary O'Brien get the evidence for her repeated claim that children of Irish Army deserters who joined the British Army in ww2, were especially targeted for harsh treatment by the state?
This claim, appears to be untrue and having no substantial specific evidence. Crucially this claim appears to be a purposeful lie, a emotive heart string puller to get people to accept the insane & immoral proposal that - deserters are really brave, heroes all.
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Answer
Some British chancer called Robert Widders seems to have first claimed this, and did so without any real investigation. He had no direct or family experience. The claim is vague, based upon nothing more than ex deserters exaggerations.
Widders is a ex British soldier, he made the wild claim to sell his book.
The BBC repeated the false claims, which have no basis in historical reality.
There was no special treatment for children of deserters.
Children were treated badly those days, all around the world. Orphans often especially poorly treated.
Widders and the BBC, appear to be conveniently ignorant of the historical facts that industrial schools were a British invention.
In the UK child abuse was institutionalized. Fagging was systemic in British public schools, this was institutionalized child abuse. But Westminster is unlikely to ever admit it. Despite some of the members, (M.P's & former public school) likely to have personally known victims, may even have been a victim of British institutionalized child abuse.

Irish Community ImagesThe website for the campaign for the deserters is run by a Peter Mulvany. He could and should have made a plausible argument, using only logic and reasoning based in the past being the imperfect past.
Instead he resources extremely bias & simplistic analogy after analogy, ranging from the perverse to blatant anti Irish pro British state propaganda.
For example, He shamelessly tries to compare the shot at dawn campaign of ww1 with these ww2 deserters.
That is a perverse comparison. Those poor Irish men who were shot and killed by the British army in ww1, were victims. Every one can be legitimately pardoned because, they were encouraged to go to war by the british state (in power in Ireland at the time), and by leading Irish politicians, notably john Redmond.
Big difference.
Mulvany's deserters were already under a oath to the Irish state and they deserted that post for their own reasons. No one officially in Ireland forced or encouraged them to desert.
Most of the public in Ireland (or Britain) only knew about the concentration death camps - after the war.
Mulvanny is sadly typical of that small minority of Paddy Englishmen, who are keen apologists for British colonial rule.
Eternal Shame on him for the way he promotes all these deserters as if he personally knows them, that they all thought and acted like his fantasy.

The real truth is, Peter Mulvany has no more idea than any of us, as to why each individual deserted.

Some could have gone for moral cause, others for immoral reasons, to get away from family responsibilities. Some went as mercenary for better pay or conditions.
Who knows the full story? Peter Mulvany does not, that is for certain fact.

Most Irish people have no genuine interest in these deserters, indifferent at best, but being polite, would tend to sign anything if asked politely.
Now that he feels self assured, believes that he has fooled enough people to temporarily sign his simplistic petition, does the website show it's true colors, flying the British flag.
Originally there were two Irish flags on his site. This was when it was spreading rewritten myths in appeal to basic Irish emotions. Myths that have turned deserters into supposed heroes, using outrageous analogy & dubious & bias claims.
Do not buy or find acceptable the sites current excuse for the British flag.

He clearly believes in the ideal of - Ireland officially & especially honoring deserters from the Irish Defence Forces, a ludicrous argument.
But he will settle for a full pardon for the deserters.
His website does not provide any credible & legitimate reasoning as to why those convicted of being deserters, should now be pardoned.
But it does sadly provide plenty of simplistic anti Irish rhetoric & sentiment, of a form one would expect of the simplest British Unionist/Loyalist websites.
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From a BBC discussion some truths of desertion can be found

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And it's so ironic that their fathers had fought so hard to enter in one of the most atrocious wars in the history of the human race and had freed all those poor people from the concentration camps in Belsen and yet their own children were subjected to a similar type of concentration camp back at home in Ireland, just because their fathers had (in inverted commas) "deserted" the Irish Army.
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Irish senator Mary Ann O'Brien, commenting on abuses of children at Artane school.
She claimed in a BBC discussion.

This claim insults all the victims of child abuse, ignores the reality that most victims were abused by cowardly evil people for their own sick ends. No other reason was ever needed by such monsters, most victims did not have parents who were known deserters.
Viewed with the benefit of the doubt - at best the claim by Senator O'Brien is - shocking selective ignorance.


Why did they desert, were they really heroes going to fight Nazi's?

Actual comments and claims on the BBC discussion that turn the blanket claim of heroes, into a perverse joke.
Irish Community Images
Irish Community ImagesBecause we were hungry, they'd give us no rations, so we got fed up, I got fed up and then they said we're having ..went up the road to Belfast and I joined up there and I could smell the food up the road, I could smell the food as I was going up the road, it was that good up there. I was 17 that time so I was well underage and I was glad to get out of where I was.Irish Community Images
John Stout deserter from Cork

This is a direct quote, bbc.co.uk/programmes/b018xtr9 from a deserter who feels he should have been treated as a hero! Why? when he admits his reasons for desertion were basic and completely selfish, and zilch zero to do with fighting the Nazis.
Any action he saw by consequence is irrelevant to the act of desertion,no politics or morals, just common desertion for selfish personal gain.

Another example
Irish Community ImagesWell conditions were poor, pay was poor, morale was poor, there was a war going on, these were young men, my father lied about his age to get into the British Army.Irish Community Images
Paddy Reid son of deserter Paddy Reid


And these comments are made in claim that the deserters were all brave and heroic!
bbc.co.uk/programmes/b018xtr9

In shameless and simplistic ignorance, some people imagine that these deserters not only deserve a honorable pardon, but backdated loss of Irish army pension. They want this to approved and deserters paid out by the Irish tax payers.

Minister Shatter, for whatever reason, seems determined to push through this redefinition of deserter.
Extremely unlikely that any Minister at Westminster, would be allowed to dare insult the memory of a entire nation, or make extreme historic simplifications to further any agenda, as he has.
Extremely unlikely that any Minister at Westminster, would be allowed to push through a blanket pardon for deserters of the British army to any other foreign army.
Extremely unlikely that any Minister at Westminster, would be allowed to try and do so and get away with it.

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