Irish Forums Message Discussion :: Ulster Scots Irish is a simplistic sectarian mythical claim
Irish Forums :: The Irish Message
Forums About Ireland and the Irish Community, For the Irish home and Abroad. Forums include- Irish Music, Irish History, The Irish Diaspora, Irish Culture, Irish Sports, Astrology, Mystic, Irish Ancestry, Genealogy, Irish Travel, Irish Reunited and Craic
Ulster Scots Irish is a simplistic sectarian mythical claim
- Ulster Scots Irish is a simplistic sectarian mythical claim
||Ulster Scots Irish is a simplistic sectarian mythical claim Sceala Irish Craic Forum Irish Message
|Sceala Irish Craic Forum Discussion:
Is it fair to state that the supposed distinct Scots Irish tongue and supposed Ulster Scots people are both essentially - myth?
Well yes the actual study of history shows it is myth and not a credible distinct people or even culture!
Scots Irish is essentially based in simplistic mythical claims, manufactured in attempt to present a distinct identity, driven by old fashioned sectarianism and ignorant nationalism as well as the common ignorance that can be seen today in North America, with their laughable ideas on the Irish and Ireland.
To take serious these older American story tellers of the 19th Century, the inventors of the scots Irish, you would also have to take serious the story tellers of later periods who literally invented other Irish imaginations.
"unfortunately this Scots Irish myth and ignorance is being perpetuated by not only ignorant bigots in their idle contentment. This scots irish bullshit myth is being encouraged by money, grants given to chancers like lord laird"
And as for the supposed 'most scots irish of them all' and supposed uber prods!
The Border Reivers!
Contrary to popular misinformation and myth making (due mainly to the simplification of Irish history for political agenda purposes by Westminster and crown of England) not all Border Reivers were Protestants, many if not a majority would have been at least nominally Roman Catholics.
We do know for certain that some American historians of the late 19th Century invented the label "Scotch Irish", they created the term for anyone who was Irish or known of Ireland but not of the recent poor and often diseased famine Irish.
What we don't generally know is how these historians could have possibly made such connections and conclusions relying only on evidence!
They could not have actually studied or attempted a study of the historical resources of the time period or earlier periods - more commonly known as the study of history.
Because contrary to the simple tales from these 19th century American historians (who were clearly looking to separate past Irish emigrants, with the newer hungry poor masses of more recent Irish). We know many if not most of the Irish in America before the 'famine' Irish were still Irish, few to none earlier labelled themselves as scots Irish or any other such nonsense.
These earlier emigrants were mainly Irish from Ireland, we know this because they called themselves Irish on arrival, not Scots irish or scots anything. When they were Scots they called themselves so.
So these earlier emigrants from Ireland were also called just plain Irish by any standard, and referred to as Irish by other Americans of different ancestral origins.
Crucial to understanding this is the historical reality (despite more recent selective history accounts) that the emigrants from pre 19th Century Ireland did not even mainly come via Ulster, most came via southern ports and were clearly regular Irish of the time
Most of whom contrary to the comparatively recent reinvention and rewriting of Irish history, were not particularly attached to any religion, at least not without proactive encouragement / persuasion.
Never the less we know from historical records that most would have actually been of Catholic stock and were Irish speaking.
Most losing both common Irish cultural habits in the new world, because of the lack of priests and teachers in Irish.
The new world was dominated by English or Spanish or French. To get on in life, the immigrant in a tough new world would have had little value in older tongues.
So Scotch Irish as somehow distinct, somehow 'protestant' is a 19th Century invention, there is no doubt about that what so ever to credible historical study.
A convenient and selective and very simplistic creation if not complete myth.
From these Irish forums, some more background on the supposed scots or Scotch Irish.
Two claims to portray antiquity, made cliche by the so called Scots Irish are
That General George Washington was supposed to have said.
�If defeated everywhere else I will make my last stand for liberty among the Scotch-Irish of my native Virginia�.
And that Davy Crockett typified the scots Irish.
Did Washington actually say this about the scots Irish?
This Washington claim that supposedly made specific reference to the scots Irish, is stated as a fact by many books and web content, including the government funded Ulster Scots Agency.
note: The Agency confusingly claim this as a fact but then add in a separate page that the Washington was only "alleged" to have remarked.
The only fact about Washington supposed reference to the scots or Scotch Irish claim is this - that no official historical record of the speech in the period has been produced to show any historical credibility. To date no such historical proof for this Washington claim actually exists.
There is no time period diary or book that mentions the reference or a single mention in any recorded work of Washington himself, there is not even Washington mentioning or referencing of the Scotch Irish in any context what so ever.
Washington does mention the Irish, he does so very often and Scots less so, but never the two as one supposed distinct grouping.
Again contrary to 19th Century revisionists, The Scots were considered by Washington's Officers as probable British loyalists, when not hired mercenaries by the English Crown.
This Washington claim that has become central to so many representations of the supposed scots Irish distinction, is at best hearsay, much more likely a fairly recent invention by some dubious author looking to sell books, or bias supposed historians.
This claim as it stands, amounts to false invention from someone of a sectarian nature to present a distinct race.
What of Davey Crockett.
From one so called scots irish history sites
"As well as hardy settlers, the Scots-Irish made fierce frontiersmen, epitomised by the legendary Davy Crockett who died at the siege of the Alamo"
But was Davey Crockett really scots Irish? Did Crockett consider himself as Scotch Irish or ever refer to himself, the answer is no.
Davy Crockett did not, and never did, not for himself or for any of his family!
Those who appear to know better than Crocketts 'own account! can only be doing so because it suits their convenient and selective and very simplistic creative myth making.
Or in other words, they are lying for a cause!
Davy Crockett the poster boy of the supposed Scots Irish race. The image of Crockett that makes the front of books and websites of so many so called Scots or Scotch Irish.
The actual history of Davy Crockett is very different to the claim!
Davy Crocketts direct family were actually from French Huguenots who emigrated to Ireland.
Crockett is a anglicized version of the French family name derived from Monsieur de la Croquetagne, a captain in the Royal Guard of French King Louis XIV.
So Crockett was direct line French heritage.
Crockett as a surname is neither Scots or Irish and so ends the poster boy claim.
Historical reality records show Crockett never once in his records ever mentions any Scottish connections, none zero, de nada!
Crockett does however refer to his family as being Irish.
The latest sham history using Davy Crockett as a supposed poster boy for the scots Irish is a very simplistic supposed history book by a Irish journalist (not historian)
If this book was about the Irish, making similar claims for the Irish, then it would be reviewed as the worst kind of plastic shamrockery thrown together by unquestioned biased gossip.
The same goes with the so called scots Irish race itself who are given supposed credence by Government.
Think in context of the typical Irish American who is just a few generations away from Ireland. How they are mocked by British Nationalists, told they are Americans not Irish.
I understand from here that if any of the millions of Irish heritage in Britain, publicly claim to be Irish or more Irish than English or British, then they are mocked in similar fashion, labelled as Plastic Paddy's.
Yet in any fair logical comparison these Irish in Britain are far more credibly traceable to their identity claim.
But at the same time as ridiculing the Irish, the very same British extremists simply accept as British, anyone in Ireland who claims any loose (unprovable in any distinct sense) connection to emigrants who arrived in Ireland from Britain over a dozen generations ago.
Sorry, it is not only unreasonable and illogical to accept the British claim, but compared to the Irish Americans and Irish elsewhere, the British claim just does not add up!
If Irish Americans or London Irish or Irish Glaswegians of a generation ago are regarded as plastic, then what does that make people in Ireland who claim to be British from 'supposed' immigrants of hundreds of years further back.
The British in Ireland is certainly far more fake if not completely ridiculous a claim in comparison.
Back to the Crock of Crockett book, What the author claims for history in this book is most often simple regurgitation of online hearsay, simplistic or convenient invention or exaggeration, when not nonsense.
For example in a recent radio interview she claimed that a supposed distinct scots Irish group were in America a century before the Irish ever were.
Regardless of what part of America that claim is based, it is only credible within her own sheer ignorance and limited knowledge of American and Irish history, because her claim is is most definitely not true.
Just as simple is the error ridden supposed history books of Senator Webb. His books of incorrect historical time periods, convenient lacking of details or misinterpretations, he who just adds myth upon myth to prop up his own extremely simple and presumably inherited bias. A simple bias that borders on racism as far as mere Irish are concerned, in terms of praising one (a mythical one at that) as if better, somehow unique.
Wrong Webb, even the term Scotch Irish or Scots Irish was never used in Ireland, not until very recently, when some with sectarian motivations willingly caught the ignorant Scotch Irish myth virus imported back in from America.
Who are now busy making more nonsense by embellishing nonsense from 19th Century American historians who made the term up as if it meant anything notable.
You all need to read more and question more. The evidence exists that these early settlers from all over Ireland, never did generically refer to themselves as Scots anything. They were Irish some of who were of a Protestant faith, most often became protestant in America, some of No faith, some were Catholic, regardless of that, religion does not make anyone Scottish or any other nationality.
These tags that boxed people were invented by sectarian minded writers long after events, long after Washington and Crockett had gone.
Read the accounts of the period, don't just accept paperbacks by the biased, who want or need to believe that their own black & white simple family tales, were all true historical fact.
If you want to believe someone like Webb, want or need to just accept as history the words of anyone who portrays any supposed group of people as extra brave, as Gods own, especially intelligent, especially what ever else suits their child like self important nonsensical bias, etc.
Just do not expect to have the genuine attention of anyone who actually studies historical accounts of any time period (as opposed to later historians fiction), to have them credibly interested in your regurgitated and blindly accepted account of what amounts to a collection of convenient but simplistic myths.
I am a Presbyterian and know many Canadians in the past have been encouraged to think simply of our Irish and Scottish heritage. I have both Irish and Scottish ancestry, I can claim to be scots Irish, and I used to claim this.
Thankfully today we are encouraged to be mature, inquire more about our heritage, who our ancestors really were.
Ulster Scots Irish is a myth, no such distinct race has ever existed.
In summary Scots Irish is without question a simplistic notion, probably cherished most by those of a extreme sectarian background.
As a distinct or separate race - scots Irish is most definitely a mythical claim, invention that does not stand up to any level of historical scrutiny.
the cultural links between American Hillbilly Appalachian and Irish music and dance
Irish family surnames, The Clans Septs of Ireland .
Scots Irish against the British Crown. Protestant and Irish
How the Irish Celts saved Britain
||Irish Topic Alert
The Irish Community have posted
39 REPLIES TO THIS TOPIC
for logged in members to view.
If Seeking Information About Ulster Scots Irish is a simplistic sectarian mythical claim,
Try Searching Irish
Irish Community Site MapIrish Message Site Map
Irish Forums Message Discussion :: Ulster Scots Irish is a simplistic sectarian mythical claim
� Sceala.com Irish Forums (Ireland) :: Designed In Ireland By Sceala The Irish
:: Irish Web Ireland ::
Ulster Scots Irish is a simplistic sectarian mythical claim From Sceala The Irish Message :: Irish